.comment-link {margin-left:.6em;}

Ichi the Killer

Bursa Malaysia stock trading portfolio of nobody really important.

Monday, October 09, 2006

Regarding Returns

Came across this statement in one of the porfolio updates which is featured in one of Malaysia's "leading" financial and business publications.

"Last week, Yi-Lai's shares traded ex for a 5 sen dividend, which we have adjusted accordingly. Yi-Lai has been a high dividend yielding stock. Since we bought these shares at RM1.03 in June 2003, we have received total dividends of RM0.545 per share, bringing our cost down by 53% to RM0.485. Against its current share price of RM1.15, our returns now stand at 137%."

Now, let's put aside the Time Value of Money for a moment, although it's arguably the most basic tenet of finance and investment (Why? Because 100% over 10 years is a helluva lot of difference from 100% over 1 year, for example). Forget about that, let's take the statement at face value. A return of 137% over a period of about 40 months (June 2003 to October 2006) is certainly a respectable feat and not to be sneered at.

But waaaiiiitt...., what's that about dividends received "bringing our cost down by 53% to RM0.485"?! So it seems that the 137% return was achieved by DEDUCTING RM0.545 (total dividends received over 40 mths) from 1.03 (the purchase price) to arrive at a brand-spanking-new cost of, get this.... 0.485! Now, isn't that a nice, small, low number? So, proceed to take the current price of 1.15 (which is actually 11.6% above the 1.03 initial cost after 40 mths) over the new cost price and wallah....137% returns are yours to book in!

Now, let's think about the concept of investment. One puts in a certain sum which represents the cost and anything else received or paid back to you after that represents your return, right? Isn't it as simple as that? If you deposit money into a bank and after 12 months it pays you 8% interest, isn't your return 8%? Do you say no, let's put that aside as cost reduction first? What kind of financial concept is that? Then, isn't it the same for all financial investments?

What if, instead, we considered dividends received in the example above as part of total returns instead of "cost reduction"? Well, adding the 11.6% capital gain to the 52.9% return from dividends to date would give a total return of 64.5% over 40 months. Still decent, but a far cry from 137%, right? (In fact, it's less than half).

Just to press this point further, let's take the above cost reduction example to the extreme. Assuming the model portfolio in question does not dispose of this share in the interim, it's entirely possible to receive another RM0.455 in total dividends over the next 3 years. Following this reasoning, the new adjusted cost would be RM0.485 - RM0.455 = RM0.03. Assuming then that your wonderful stock suddenly plummets from RM1+ down to RM0.33 on some really bad news.... would you be worried? Of course not, just sell the damn thing, take your 1,000% return (RM0.33 / RM0.03) and give yourself a nice pat on the back. After all, not every ordinary Joe regularly pockets 1,000% returns, you know ... you've done well for yourself.

/ichithekiller

p.s. Since I'm no mathematical or financial genius, if I've made any errors in calculation or assumption, please let me know. I will gladly change my views if I can be shown the error of my ways. I too would like to get to the bottom of this mystery as to why investment professionals and amateurs alike regularly condone and use this type of return calculation for individual stocks.

p.p.s On a total return basis, i.e. total $$$ at the end of the day, the piggy bank balance would be the same, though, whichever method of calculation is used.

22 Comments:

At 4:07 PM, Blogger swifz said...

oh...that's the art of accounting.

That's why things like Enron happened.

 
At 4:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

in my opinion, % profit should base on "initial" investment not base on multiple deductions from dividen received... if the later the case, at the end of day... infinite % profit lar.. does not make sense... tats y the % get so ballooned... ho ho ho

m i sayin da right thing....

wk

 
At 4:47 PM, Blogger ccdev said...

Hey man,

which leading financial publication was this printed on? i gotta check it out.

 
At 7:58 PM, Blogger swifz said...

Article from theedgedaily.com (InsiderAsia)
http://www.theedgedaily.com/cms/content.jsp?id=com.tms.cms.article.Article_1d5f4363-cb73c03a-1567e6c0-9d5b6213

 
At 4:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

wk aka anonymous,

I disagree.
It is also basically returns.
Eg. Why does share price normally shoot up when a company declare dividend or a capital repayment?
It is also factored into the ROI.

Also, what about investors with the strategy of a dividend stock investments? Their ROIs are basically dividends!!! (Not me - normally retirees and huge funds)

 
At 10:24 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

u r darn right. hav seen lot of these deceiving methods of calculation

 
At 11:35 AM, Blogger ichithekiller said...

maxforce,

I think you misunderstood my argument. I totally agree with you that that dividends are part of returns. As such, they should be accounted for as just that...RETURNS on the topline. Not some form of cost reduction to reduce the bottom-line cost denominator. WK is right in that if you take the above extreme example further, one day the cost base will become zero. By then, even if the share drops to just 1 sen, you will still have a return of infinity. Now, how that makes sense to anyone really beats me...

 
At 11:49 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

All these maths is giving me a headache - supposed to be a relaxing public holiday today :P

 
At 12:11 PM, Blogger ichithekiller said...

Take it easy man ...

Anyway, it doesn't affect me. I just can't stand it that people who are looking to invest their money but who are not financially-savvy may get taken in by all these "impressive" return numbers...

 
At 4:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

maxforce... example...
Case 1 : Initial investment 1,000 units @ RM1. Initial dividend RM200. Closing price : RM1... % profit based on initial investment should be only 20% (200/1,000 x 100%)... rite?

Case 2 : Same thing.. but deductions of dividend on initial investment... so he is bringing down the initial investment to RM800 rather than RM1,000... % profit based on the "new initial amount" is 25% now (200/800 x 100%)...

extra 5% woh... steady lar... end up bluffing yourself oni...

like tat also can? hmm.... wah.. i think thats wat ichi is tryin to tell...

m i saying da rite thing?

wk

 
At 8:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

wahhh wk... kenot lah like that.
Case 2 is definitely misleading.
Case 1 scenario applies and stand true especially to dividend stock players

 
At 8:23 PM, Blogger ichithekiller said...

wk always says the right thing... ke ke. Glad you agree, maxforce...

 
At 9:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

if u agree.. then wats with the hoo-haa in the beginning... :)

kekekekee.....

wk

 
At 9:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

er, cause my maths sux?
Haha... sorriloh :P

 
At 9:43 PM, Blogger Moolah said...

Hi guys,

I actually posted on this issue before.

http://whereiszemoola.blogspot.com/2006/04/its-calculations-that-counts.html

 
At 8:33 AM, Blogger Moolah said...

Ichi,

Good to see you bring this issue up lah.

I think it's really scandalous how these buggers try to potrait themselves..

see hor... establishing themselves to have a good track record has so many advantages and the biggest one is that it will create a group of cult supporters who WILL just FOLLOW their recommendations because they have a sibeh geng track record! (haven't you seen such stuff going on? :P)

so hor... such creative kira-kira is a MUST mah.

:D

 
At 3:35 PM, Blogger stocktube said...

finance is an art which allows accountant to twist whichever way they want ... else we won't have enron case ... it happened everywhere, even in usa where there're strict commissions for disclosure ...

do you know in usa, whoever shareholder/employee who wish to buy or sell their co's shares need to declare ? specially when they intend to buy ... and if they buy, they can't sell within 6 months - to prevent manipulation or insider trading ...

sorry, out of topic ...

stocktube ..

http://stocktube.blogspot.com

 
At 9:47 AM, Blogger ccdev said...

Spoke to them insider asia people yestday, said it was their policy to have a "running" portfolio (whatever the hell that means) to accurately reflect the returns. mention that they had to put the div returns somewhere. hee hee

 
At 10:44 AM, Blogger ichithekiller said...

Of course they have to put it somewhere, there's absolutely no argument about that. Here's a suggestion... how about as a top-line return for a start? Duh ...

Hi Moola, yeah man, this really stinks doesn't it?

 
At 2:09 AM, Blogger Trader Max said...

In fact now that you ve mentioned it... a lot of people are doing it... even some from the blog links you ve provided...

 
At 4:21 PM, Blogger ichithekiller said...

Well, one cannot stop people from doing what they want to do. There's no point arguing or debating such things with the proponents. After all this practice does not detract from the ability of anyone or any firm.

All I wanted to do was point out the existence of such "methods" so that the general public is at least aware of it, because often times, such things are only left in the fine print.

 
At 1:38 AM, Blogger Trader Max said...

yeah you re right of course, just want to highlight that it is very rampant :(

 

Post a Comment

<< Home